American Tragedy

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It’s not quite five o’clock, but Darren Criss is sipping his first glass of champagne moments after arriving in a small basement lounge in Park City, Utah.

The Sundance Film Festival is in full swing, accounting for much of the activity in the cramped space, but Criss isn’t here for that. The star of FX’s The Assassination of Gianni Versace just wrapped a set nearby at the ASCAP Music Café, where he performed angsty songs from his sophomore solo release, Homework.

Though plenty of Hollywood types are in town for the indie film festival, Criss says he recognized no one in the crowd at his gig, save for his fiancée, Mia Swier, who has also been joining him on the ski slopes during the day. It’s a bit of a celebratory trip, given that the pair recently got engaged and Criss just finished shooting the final episode in season two of the American Crime Story anthology series, in which he plays megalomaniacal spree killer Andrew Cunanan.

Belting out tunes for a roomful of strangers can be just as gratifying as heading an ensemble cast for his former Glee boss Ryan Murphy on Versace, where he played (briefly) opposite titular victim Edgar Ramírez and on a parallel but separate track from costars Penélope Cruz (as Donatella Versace) and Ricky Martin (as Gianni’s lover Antonio D’Amico).

The nine-episode storyline moves in reverse chronological order: Criss operates in his own thread, which traces the roots of the Talented Mr. Ripley-esque maniac, once dubbed “most likely to be remembered” by his graduating class at a posh San Diego high school.

“One of the great goals in my career is to keep things as versatile as possible and to confuse and to throw people off,” he says. “So, I like it when you have a room full of Sundance people, you know, music folks, music supervisors, filmmakers that are like, ‘Wait, what? He’s a songwriter?’ That really excites me. The same way that, when I was mostly playing music and booked an acting gig, people would be like, ‘What? You’re an actor?’”

Unlike his famous costars, who have toplined studio movies (Ramírez), won an Oscar (Cruz) and enjoyed huge musical success (Martin), Criss has been waiting for his breakout.

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American Tragedy


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How Ryan Murphy Became the Most Powerful Man in TV 

More than any other showrunner, he has upended the pieties of modern television. | 7 May 2018

How Ryan Murphy Became the Most Powerful Man in TV

Ryan Murphy hates the word “camp.” He sees it as a lazy catchall that gets thrown at gay artists in order to marginalize their ambitions, to frame their work as niche. “I don’t think that when John Waters made ‘Female Trouble’ that he was, like, ‘I want to make a camp piece,’ ” Murphy told me last May, as we sat in a production tent in South Beach, Florida, where he was directing the pilot of “American Crime Story: The Assassination of Gianni Versace,” a nine-episode series for FX. “I think that he was, like, ‘It’s my tone—and my tone is unique.’ ”

Murphy prefers a different label: “baroque.” Between shots, the showrunner—who has overseen a dozen television series in the past two decades—elaborated, with regal authority, on this idea. To Murphy, “camp” describes not irony but something closer to clumsiness, the accident you can’t look away from. People rarely use the term to describe a melodrama made by a straight man; even when “camp” is meant as a compliment, it contains an insult, suggesting a musty smallness. “Baroque” is big. Murphy, referring to TV critics (including me) who have applied “camp” to his work, said, “I will admit that it really used to bug the shit out of me. But it doesn’t anymore.”

We were outside the Casa Casuarina, the Mediterranean-style mansion that the Italian fashion designer Gianni Versace renovated and considered his masterwork—a building with airy courtyards and a pool inlaid with dizzy ribbons of red, orange, and yellow ceramic tiles. A small bronze statue of a kneeling Aphrodite stood at the top of the mansion’s front steps. In 1997, a young gay serial killer named Andrew Cunanan shot Versace to death there as the designer, who was fifty, was returning from his morning stroll.

The previous day, Murphy had filmed the murder scene. Cunanan was played by Darren Criss, a star of Murphy’s biggest hit, “Glee.” I’d visited the set that day, too, arriving to find ambulances, cops, and paparazzi swarming outside. There was a splash of red on the marble steps. Inside the house, Edgar Ramirez, the Venezuelan actor playing Versace, sat in a shaded courtyard, his hair caked with gun-wound makeup, his face lowered in his hands.

Now Murphy was filming the aftermath of the crime, including a scene in which two lookie-loos dip a copy of Vanity Fair into the puddle of Versace’s blood. (They sell the relic on eBay.) The vibe was an odd blend of sombre and festive; a half-naked rollerblader spun in slow circles on the sidewalk next to the beach. Murphy, who is fifty-three, is a stylish man, but on set he wore the middle-aged male showrunner’s uniform: baggy cargo shorts and a polo shirt. He has a rosebud mouth and close-cropped vanilla hair. He is five feet ten but has a brawny air of command, creating the illusion that he is much taller. His brother is six feet four, he told me, as was his late father; Murphy thinks that his own growth was stunted by chain-smoking when he was a rebellious teen-ager, in Indiana.

Murphy’s mood tends to shift unexpectedly, like a wonky thermostat—now warm, now icy—but on the “Versace” set he made one confident decision after another about the many shows he was overseeing, as if skipping stones. He also answered stray questions—about the casting for a Broadway revival of “The Boys in the Band” that he was producing, about a grand house in Los Angeles that he’d been renovating for two years. “Ooh, yes!” he said, inspecting penis-nosed clown masks that had been designed for his series “American Horror Story.” He approved a bespoke nail-polish design for an actress. A producer handed Murphy an updated script, joking, “If there’s a mistake, you can drown me in Versace’s pool!,” then scheduled a notes meeting for “American Crime Story: Katrina,” whose writers were working elsewhere in the building. Now and then, Murphy FaceTimed with his then four-year-old son, Logan, who, along with his two-year-old brother, Ford, was in L.A. with Murphy’s husband, David Miller.

“I never get overwhelmed or feel underwater, because I feel like all good things come from detail,” Murphy told me. It’s what got him to this point: the compulsion, and the craving, to do more. “Baroque is a sensibility I can get behind,” he said. “Baroque is a maximalist approach to storytelling that I’ve always liked. Baroque is a choice. And everything I do is an absolute choice.”

Murphy’s choices, perhaps more than those of any other showrunner, have upended the pieties of modern television. Like a wild guest at a dinner party, he’d lifted the table and slammed it back down, leaving the dishes broken or arranged in a new order. Several of Murphy’s shows have been critically divisive (and, on occasion, panned in ways that have raised his hackles). But he has produced an unusually long string of commercial and critical hits: audacious, funny-peculiar, joyfully destabilizing series, in nearly every genre. His run started with the satirical melodrama “Nip/Tuck” (2003), then continued with the global phenomenon “Glee” (2009) and with “American Horror Story,” now entering its eighth year, which launched the influential season-long anthology format. His legacy is not one standout show but, rather, the sheer force and variety and chutzpah of his creations, which are linked by a singular storytelling aesthetic: stylized extremity and rude humor, shock conjoined with sincerity, and serious themes wrapped in circus-bright packaging. He is the only television creator who could possibly have presented Lily Rabe as a Satan-possessed nun, gyrating in a red negligee in front of a crucifix while singing “You Don’t Own Me,” and have it come across as an indelible critique of the Catholic Church’s misogyny.

When Murphy entered the industry, he sometimes struck his peers as an aloof, prickly figure; he has deep wounds from those years, although he admits that he contributed to this reputation. Nonetheless, Murphy has moved steadily from the margins to television’s center. He changed; the industry changed; he changed the industry. In February, Murphy rose even higher, signing the largest deal in television history: a three-hundred-million-dollar, five-year contract with Netflix. For Murphy, it was a moment of both triumph and tension. You can’t be the underdog when you’re the most powerful man in TV.

On that sunny afternoon in South Beach, however, Murphy was still comfortably ensconced in a twelve-year deal with Fox Studios. On FX, which is owned by Fox, he had three anthology series: “American Horror Story”; “American Crime Story,” for which he was filming “Versace,” writing “Katrina,” and planning a season based on the Monica Lewinsky scandal; and “Feud,” whose first season starred Susan Sarandon as Bette Davis and Jessica Lange as Joan Crawford.

For Fox, he was developing “9-1-1,” a procedural about first responders. He had announced two shows for Netflix: “Ratched,” a nurse’s-eye view of “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest,” starring Sarah Paulson; and “The Politician,” a satirical drama starring Ben Platt. Glenn Close was trying to talk him into directing her in a movie version of the Andrew Lloyd Webber musical “Sunset Boulevard.” Murphy was writing a book called “Ladies,” about female icons. He had launched Half, a foundation dedicated to diversity in directing, and had committed to hiring half of his directors from underrepresented groups. And, he told me, there was something new: a series for FX called “Pose,” a dance-filled show set in the nineteen-eighties.

It was no mystery which character in his current series Murphy most identified with: Gianni Versace himself. Versace was a commercially minded artist whose brash inventions were dismissed by know-nothings as tacky, and whose openness about his sexuality threatened his ascent in a homophobic era. Versace, too, was a baroque maximalist, Murphy told me, who built his reputation through fervid workaholism—an insistence that his vision be seen and understood. “He was punished and he struggled,” Murphy said, then spoke in Versace’s voice: “Why aren’t I loved for my excess? Why don’t they see something valid in that?”

[…] Murphy has long been a connoisseur of extremes and hyperbole, games and theatricality. He rates everything he sees and revels in institutions that do the same—the Oscars are a kind of religion for him. In Miami, at dinner with the “Katrina” and “Versace” writers, he played a high-stakes game in which he was forced to immediately choose one person in his circle over another; he demurred only when the choice was between Jessica Lange and Sarah Paulson. His go-to question is “Is it a hit or a flop?,” and he asked it about every show that came up in conversation, as I observed him giving shape to “Pose,” from scouting locations to editing dance footage. (He has other stock phrases. “What’s the scoop?” is how he begins writers’ meetings. “Energy begets energy” explains his impulse to add new projects. “That’s interesting” sometimes indicates “That’s worth noticing” but just as often means “That’s infuriating.”)

[…] His multitasking benefits greatly from the freedoms of cable and streaming: he has zero nostalgia for the twenty-two-episode network grind of a show like “Glee,” in which “halfway through Episode 15 you had nothing left to say, the actors were sick, the writers were sick, and it was fucking oatmeal until the end.” He favors eight or ten episodes, often with a small writers’ room, as with “Pose.” He writes scripts for some shows, whereas for others he gives notes; on a few projects, like his HBO adaptation of Larry Kramer’s play “The Normal Heart,” he’s very hands-on. “We left blood on the dance floor,” Murphy said, affectionately, of his three-year collaboration with Kramer. “Versace” had one writer, Tom Rob Smith. But Murphy provided close directorial, design, and casting oversight, and he had a strong commitment to the show’s themes, particularly the contrast between Versace and Cunanan, two gay men craving success, but only one willing to work for it.

[…] In the meanwhile, Murphy had scored a ratings bonanza with Fox’s “9-1-1,” a wackadoo procedural featuring stories like one about a baby caught in a plumbing pipe. It was his parting gift to Dana Walden. “Versace” had been, by certain standards, a flop: lower ratings, mixed reviews. Artistically, though, it was one of Murphy’s boldest shows, with a backward chronology and a moving performance by Criss as Cunanan, a panicked dandy hollowed out by self-hatred. After the finale aired, a new set of reviews emerged. Matt Brennan, on Paste, argued that “Versace” had been subjected to “the straight glance”—a critical gaze that skims queer art, denying its depths. “Even critics sympathetic to the series seem as uncomfortable with its central subject as the Miami cops were with those South Beach fags,” Brennan wrote. Murphy was reading a new oral history of Tony Kushner’s “Angels in America,” in which, in one scene, Roy Cohn denies being gay because, he barks, homosexuals lack power: they are “men who know nobody and who nobody knows.” The line echoes one in “Versace.” A homeless junkie dying of aids tells the cops, bitterly, why gay men couldn’t stop talking about the designer: “We all imagined what it would be like to be so rich and so powerful that it doesn’t matter that you’re gay.”

How Ryan Murphy Became the Most Powerful Man in TV

Ryan Murphy, Wendy Williams, Mindhunter, and The Bold Type Join Vulture Festival

SUNDAY, MAY 20

8 p.m. to 9 p.m.: RYAN MURPHY: IN CONVERSATION
Four-time Emmy-winning super-producer Ryan Murphy makes his Vulture Festival debut in a wide-ranging conversation with New York and Vulture Hollywood editor Stacey Wilson Hunt about his juggernaut TV career — he recently inked a history-making $300 million deal with Netflix — his provocative 2018 Emmy-contending limited series The Assassination of Gianni Versace and his Half Foundation initiative, which offers jobs, mentorships, and scholarships to women, people of color, and members of the LGBTQ community. Murphy will also offer fans an exclusive look inside his groundbreaking forthcoming dance-musical drama Pose — set against New York’s 1980’s ballroom culture, it boasts the largest cast of transgender series regulars of any scripted series ever produced— which premieres June 3 on FX. Milk Studios (450 West 15th Street). Tickets $25 (includes complimentary access to the Vulture Lounge following the event).

Ryan Murphy, Wendy Williams, Mindhunter, and The Bold Type Join Vulture Festival

TV’s First $300M Man: The Wild and Weepy Backstory of Ryan Murphy’s Blockbuster Netflix Deal

[…] One of the things that became clear to him during this process is that he doesn’t want to be “just a showrunner” anymore. “It’s just not interesting for me to sit in a room for eight hours a day with my mind as a sieve pouring out ideas,” he says. Nor is he interested in waking up to a daily ratings report card. “I felt that frustration even with [The Assassination of Gianni] Versace, which I think is one of the best things I’ve ever done, but you couldn’t win because it’s like, ‘Well, it’s no O.J.,’” he says, referring to the first installment of American Crime Story, which smashed ratings records for FX and cleaned up on the awards circuit. “So, the Netflix way is an interesting way because it’s a purely creativity way. It is simply ‘Your show is doing great’ or ‘Your show is not doing so great.’ That’s it. It’s not a humiliating ‘Your show is down 30 percent.’”

TV’s First $300M Man: The Wild and Weepy Backstory of Ryan Murphy’s Blockbuster Netflix Deal

Ryan Murphy on ‘Versace’ Finale, ‘9-1-1’ Plans and His Crazy Year Ahead

FX’s “The Assassination of Gianni Versace: American Crime Story” was a long and grueling shoot that stretched from May to January, hopscotched the country from Miami to Minnesota to Chicago to San Francisco, and was lensed virtually all on location. The houseboat where Versace killer Andrew Cunanan was trapped as he met his end was rebuilt from scratch on Miami’s Collins Avenue by the production team, based on crime scene photographs and other footage from the era of the 1997 slaying of the famed fashion designer.

But all of the time, energy and money devoted to “Versace” paid off for uber-executive producer Ryan Murphy, once he saw how star Darren Criss, writer/exec producer Tom Rob Smith, and director/exec producer Dan Minahan pulled off the final hour of the nine-episode series.

“It was that moment when you’re shooting the series that you’re waiting for. We knew the stuff Darren was going to have to do would be very, very emotional and upsetting, when he was finally caged and trapped,” Murphy told Variety. “It was hard for him. Darren had nobody to react to other than himself for most of the episode. He really arced the character so well and stripped it down to the bare essence at the end. It was very emotional and difficult material. Darren gave the performance of the year.”

Murphy said he’s gratified to see Criss receive generally strong reviews for the extremely demanding role that he hopes will open more more doors for the former “Glee” player.

“When you get stereotyped as a writer or an actor it’s hard to break out of that lane and show people you’re capable of so much more,” said Murphy. “I’m excited for him about what opens up for him.”

Murphy also hailed Minahan and Smith for taking the extra step of intense rehearsals for the climactic scenes of Cunanan alone as a squatter in a houseboat as the FBI’s manhunt closed in on him. “Versace’s” narrative unfolded as a backward chronology from the moment of Cunanan’s July 1997 murder of Versace on the steps of his Miami mansion. Smith immersed himself in research to write all episodes of the series in that challenging format — an accomplishment that drew a thumbs up via Twitter earlier this week from none other than Stephen King.

The final hour of the series, “Alone,” depicted the moment of reckoning for the deranged protagonist as well as some closure for other characters, including Donatella Versace (Penelope Cruz), Marilyn Miglin (Judith Light), Cunanan’s hustler friend Donnie (Max Greenfield), and Versace’s lover Antonio (Ricky Martin). Murphy said those sequences were designed as “arias” to give the supporting characters a final bow in the spotlight.

“Max Greenfield came back with this thesis statement about homophobia, Judith Light gave us this insane operatic monologue,” Murphy said. “We spent time with the victims, the people who lost things because of Cunanan’s murders.”

“Versace” did not land with the same pop culture punch as the inaugural “American Crime Story” series, 2016’s “The People V. O.J. Simpson.” To date the series has averaged about 3 million total viewers in Nielsen’s live-plus-7 ratings, compared to about 7.7 million for “People V. O.J. Simpson.”

Murphy said he knew that the “Versace” would draw a more modest crowd given the subject matter and the fact that the Simpson saga was so much more well known by the general public. But the larger message of “Versace’s” effort to demonstrate the homophobia and discrimination that hampered the police investigation of Cunanan’s killings has touched a nerve, based on the reactions Murphy has received.

“I can always tell if something is working or landing by how many people stop me on the street to tell me they’re binge-watching it and loving it,” he said. “I’m so proud about the message of the show. It meant a lot to people.”

The conclusion of “Versace” comes on the same night that another new Murphy production wraps its freshman year. Fox’s “9-1-1,” a fast-paced procedural about first-responders and dispatchers, couldn’t be more different than “Versace.” Murphy admits he was reluctant to do a traditional network TV procedural, but prodding from Fox Television Group chairman Dana Walden made Murphy’s team pull together a strong cast — anchored by Angela Bassett, Connie Britton, and Peter Krause — and deliver “9-1-1” for debut sooner than they expected in January.

“Dana was really adamant in saying ‘You have another procedural in you’ and that Jan. 3 was the time to premiere it,” Murphy said. “And she was right. Dana is the reason why this has all worked.”

“9-1-1” has inched up steadily in viewership, winning its Wednesday 9 p.m. time slot for most of its run with an average of 10 million viewers. Murphy said there’s already discussions of potential spinoffs — every major city has a first-responder hub, after all — but nothing formally set in stone. In the near term, the focus is on expanding the show in season two with “more people in the call center and more stars,” he said.

With “9-1-1,” Murphy has launched a hit for Fox in his waning months as a producer on the lot before he segues to a mammoth Netflix overall deal on July 1. Murphy hasn’t had time to hatch any brand-new ideas for his new network home — he’ll have his hands full during the next year delivering the four new shows — two for Netflix — that he already has in the pipeline in his soon-to-expire 20th Century Fox TV deal.

At present Murphy is in New York shooting the 1980s-set drama “Pose” for FX. In July he’s slated to begin work on the political satire “The Politician” and the eighth season of FX’s “American Horror Story.” When those shows wind down in January, he’ll reunite with Sarah Paulson on Netflix’s “Ratched,” the origin story of “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest’s” Nurse Ratched.

So while he won’t be actively developing new projects for at least a few months, Murphy won’t exactly be idle.

“There’s going to be a lot of extensive legwork and a lot of traveling for these shows. They all shoot in different cities,” Murphy said. “For the first time in a long time, I can tell you I feel pretty content. For now, I’m good.”

Ryan Murphy on ‘Versace’ Finale, ‘9-1-1’ Plans and His Crazy Year Ahead

‘Assassination of Gianni Versace’: Ryan Murphy on the finale and the next ‘ACS’

Tonight was the haunting, operatic finale to The Assassination of Gianni Versace: American Crime Story. The end of the nine-hour miniseries found Andrew Cunanan (Darren Criss) taking his own life and the Versace family laying their beloved Gianni (Edgar Ramirez) to rest.

EW talked to executive producer Ryan Murphy about the finale, Criss’ revelatory performance, and whether Katrina is still planned as the next installment in FX’s critically acclaimed American Crime Story franchise.

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: You all shot in the Versace mansion for a month for the beginning of the series. Was this finale shot when you shot the initial stuff at Versace’s home? Or did you go back?
RYAN MURPHY: No, we went back. We had to build that houseboat. We built it based on the specifications of the mockup, so it took some time.

This final episode feels almost like a curtain call for a lot of the actors, like Jon Jon Briones and Max Greenfield. Was that a conscious choice to have them back and, in some ways, take a bow?
Well, I think the point was to bring back as many of the players as you could. But they were all very active in those final days of Cunanan. Like, they really did think Cunanan might be coming for Marilyn Miglin. So it all dovetailed nicely. By the nature of the cross- country manhunt idea, the narrative was so spread out, so it was nice to finally have an episode where all of these great people could come back together. That was always part of the plan of the structure.

Max Greenfield’s scene in the interrogation room at the police station feels like the thesis for Versace, in that homophobia was so much of the reason the police didn’t pursue Cunanan.
Yes, and also Marilyn Miglin [played by Judith Light] has a big monologue about family. So yes, but I think the reason I was interested in doing it initially and was drawn to it initially was because one of the crimes was apathy. Here was this manhunt, and it’s true that in Miami a lot of the police officers would not go into gay bars to put up the most-wanted posters because they thought people would think they were gay. So by pure apathy and being dismissed as, “Well, he’s taking out gay people, who cares!” that’s one of the reasons he ultimately had such a high body count — because people just didn’t care, particularly law enforcement.

It’s so great to see Jon Jon, Judith, Max and even Ricky Martin get these great moments. Was that rewarding to give them these showcases at the end?
We gave all these great actors these solo arias. I love that about it. I thought it added something personal. One of the things we’ve done over the course over the show, it wasn’t a show just about Versace or Cunanan — it was about the victims and the victims of the time. They’re all such fantastic actors, so to give them these page, two-page-long monologues, I loved doing that and I know they were very grateful for that.

So much of the houseboat stuff feels like a hallucination by Andrew. Was that something you were going for?
Yeah we did. Of course nobody can really know what happened in there other than a lot of physical evidence he left behind, like what he ate and what he watched. What I thought was so crazy about that houseboat was that there was a TV in every room and Andrew had found this television projector, so that was something that was really there. So he kind of did have TVs going in every room. At that point, Cunanan was on crystal meth and coming down off the drug in very painful withdrawal, and he had no food. The last couple days of his life were very fraught.

Darren really leaves everything on the table for this role, even shaving his head. You were his biggest champion for this — how do you feel about his performance?
I am proud of him and I always knew he could do it and I think he proved he could do it. I was very adamant about his casting. I thought there was a great dramatic actor inside there waiting to come out. He took his responsibilities very seriously, and that’s the best thing I can ever do having the gig I have, is believing in people and giving the opportunities for them to shine. I do think it’s the best performance of the year, and I think it’s the hardest. It’s a nine-hour descent into madness.

You began the series with Versace waking up, and you end it with Andrew in a mausoleum. Did you go back and forth on the final image?
Well, I liked the juxtaposition and I like what it said: In the end, Andrew didn’t get what he wanted. He was just one man out of thousands. When you pull out and the names surrounding him go on forever, as opposed to Versace. I liked the idea of the anonymity of Andrew’s legacy. I thought it was haunting to go back and forth to Donatella looking at the medusa in Versace’s mausoleum, and the grandeur and the love and the family and the spirit, versus the coldness and isolation of Andrew’s.

So when will ACS: Katrina start? Soon?
I don’t quite know. We’re working on a couple of things. That’s a show where we have a lot of things cooking. We literally just edited the finale last week, so we haven’t made that decision yet. We’re never going to have a Crime Storyunless we have the scripts down. I think the reason why Versace went next is because Tom Rob Smith had such a strong take on it. I am not in a rush to move forward with anything unless it’s perfect. So we’ll see what’s next for that.

What about Feud 2? Are you any closer with that?
Still talking about it. We’re still deciding it. I have the new Netflix deal and I have all my shows with Fox, I don’t want to do something unless the scripts are ready and the casts are ready. I’m taking my time and just trying to get everything right.

I haven’t talked to you since the Netflix deal. How do you feel about this?
I’m really excited. I’m really excited to do something else. I’m excited to explore new worlds and do all different types of programming and make documentaries. I’m also really excited about the shows I have with Fox, two of those are my Netflix shows, Ratched and The Politician. At least for the near foreseeable future, nothing has changed. It’s business as usual and I’m still there, and we’re all still close and cool. I feel good about everything.

‘Assassination of Gianni Versace’: Ryan Murphy on the finale and the next ‘ACS’

Do Ratings Still Matter? Ryan Murphy Argues There Are No Rules Any More

Ryan Murphy’s freshman series 9-1-1 is the most watched show on Wednesdays, and the most watched show on all of Fox, with 14.3 million viewers.

With more than 400 scripted shows vying for your time, let’s just give you the highly scientific data here: Those kind of numbers are about as easy to come by as a unicorn crapping gold on your front lawn.

For Murphy, whose shows are often adored by fans and critics, but aren’t always necessarily heavy-hitters in the Nielsens, this kind of ratings bonanza, right out of the gate, feels a little surreal.

“I really did 9-1-1 as an experiment with [Fox Television Group Chairman] Dana Walden,” Murphy tells E! News. “Like, what’s not on network television? I had no expectations of it, but I just wanted to surround myself with people that I’d worked with and loved. And then when those live numbers were coming in, they were so high, comparatively, and it won every night during its run, and I was pleasantly surprised.”

And perhaps a little conflicted, given that 9-1-1’s numbers were coming in at the same time as the second installment of Murphy’s American Crime Story, The Assassination of Gianni Versace, which appeared to underperform compared to the series’ first installment, The People vs. OJ Simpson, on FX.

(Both Versace and 9-1-1 air their season finales tonight.)

O.J. was clearly a ratings behemoth—and an awards-show beast. But while Versace hasn’t garnered quite as much buzz or live-viewing luster, it does seem well positioned for its own awards glory, and plenty of streaming clicks when it hits Netflix. (Not only is it a natural binge-watch series, you actually can watch it in reverse for a second go-around, to put the events in chronological order, if you so desire.) 

So for perhaps the first time in his storied career, Murphy—who just signed a massive overall deal with Netflix—is re-evaluating the metric by which he measures his own success.

“What the past six months have taught me is, there are no rules any more,” Murphy tells E! News. “There are no rules of success. There used to be. You were a winner or a loser overnight, and you knew overnight exactly where you were. And I think that it’s not about that any more. I never feel that overnight ratings on anything tell the story. I feel like it’s just the tip of the iceberg. I don’t watch live television. In my life, I don’t do that. I watch things in delayed viewing. And Versace’s numbers have grown each week.”

More so than ratings, Murphy says he’s deeply invested in feedback from those who are watching. “Versace has been a show were it has elicited the most response of people coming up to me on the street or at award shows or on sets and saying, ‘I’m watching it and loving it.’ So I do feel people are watching Versace. Most people don’t know about Andrew Cunanan. Everybody knows about O.J. So right there, it’s just a different entry way, but I think that Versace is doing tremendous numbers in delayed viewing, it sold incredibly well overseas, and it’s going to be on Netflix were it will have a long life next to OJ.”

In the past five years, as Netflix has poured massive funds into original programming and sent the number of original series soaring, networks have fought hard to make linear TV feel urgent again. And that’s precisely what Murphy’s 9-1-1 has done, with its focus on first responders on the scene of some incredibly intense emergency calls.

“I’m interested in the Netflix model,” says Murphy, “because you don’t get the daily report card. But I’m also interested in the 9-1-1 experience, which proved to me that there is sort of an excitement and there is still an appetite for immediate water-cooler conversation shows. It’s still there.”

Murphy says it will be “business as usual” with the projects he already had in the works under 20th Century Fox (Pose, The Politician, American Horror Story and Ratchet are next in the pipeline) as he begins developing new projects for Netflix under his new deal.

“All I can ever do is try and do my best work and try and connect with an audience. I’ve just decided that I don’t have a judgment about anything, because the business is in such flux, that every time you think you understand how it’s going to be, there’s some new wrinkle and something has changed.”

Do Ratings Still Matter? Ryan Murphy Argues There Are No Rules Any More